An interview with Zhang Hongtu

Down here you can find an interview with the master Zhang Hongtu, realized via email last October. I was writing my final thesis on the fortune of Mao icon in the world, so, what better way to communicate directly with the creator of Material Mao?

He is the best known author of satirical images of Mao. Hailing from a Muslim family, he was excluded from partecipating in the Red Guards. His boyhood was strongly influenced by Maoism, expecially during the Cultural Revolution. When he left China to move to USA, he realized that just a few stroke of brush could turn the American icon Wiliam Penn (Quaker Oats' logo) into the Chairman Mao. The work, known as Long Live Chairman Mao (1987), marked the beginning of a long artistic career focused on Mao. Material Mao Series, which started a few years later, is composed by cut-out silhouettes of Mao, moving from positive and negative images, presence and absence, religious and profane, and most important of all, Mao emerging by non-Mao shaped spaces. 

1. 我看了一些采访，您说了毛泽东是中国人生活中最重要部分之一。什么地方都有毛主席的图片：房子里，学校里，车里，书上，等等。毛象的大普遍对您留下什么影响？怎么牵动您的生活、艺术风格？

In some interview you said that Mao had become one of the most important element of everyday life. His icon was everywhere: in houses, schools, cars. This great circulation of Mao image, what kind of impression has made on you? In which way has that image also influenced your life and artistic style?

ZHT:

在文化大革命中，由于毛泽东和林彪，江青等人制造的对毛的个人崇拜，再加上一般老百姓的愚昧无知及根深蒂固的奴性，使得毛泽东的形象遍布普通人生活的每一个角落，猖狂 泛滥。我自己也曾经相信毛，但是文化革命使我亲身经历了毛泽东是如何利用人们对他的信仰，毁灭文化、摧残人性，我开始怀疑他，批判他，并且推而广之，我认为任何“偶像崇拜”都会使人变得愚蠢。这种认识使我的思维变得更加开放，我也不愿意被任何艺术风格束缚。作为艺术家，我认为自由地表达自己高于一切。

我相信形象的力量，但是我不相信形象的權威。一個人在長時間凝視一個紅的形狀而視神經疲勞之後，轉過頭去會看到一個綠色的同樣形狀。當我生活在中國時，隨時隨地都能看到的一個正面 （陽）形象疲勞了我的視神經，使今天的我，腦子裡有了一個同一形象的負(陰）象。在我的作品中，我所作的是將這種心理上的感覺轉變成一個實在的物體。

During the Cultural Revolution, Mao, Lin Biao, Jiang Qing and suchlike, has built the cult of Mao. Ignorance and deep-rooted servility of common people let those images wildly overwhelm life. I believed in Mao, but Cultural Revolution made me experience the way in which Mao could use the devotion of people as a political tool, putting an end to culture, destroying minds. I began to suspect of him, to disapprove his actions. At the same time I understood that image-devotion could make people foolish. Such awareness let me change idea and open my mind. I don’t think to be linked to a certain style. As an artist, I believe that the free expression could make yourself a better person.

"I believe in the power of the image, but I don't believe in the authority of the image. If you stare at a red shape for a long time, when you turn away, your retina will hold the image but you will see a green version of the same shape. In the same way, when I lived in China, I saw the positive image of Mao so many times that my mind now holds a negative image of Mao. In my art I am transferring this psychological feeling to a physical object."

2.            为什么最终决定了迁徙美国？我觉得这样的决定改变了您的生活，怎么样？

Why did you decide to move to USA in the end? This choice must have revolutionized your life, I guess. How?

ZHT:

虽然从1979年开始，邓小平进行了所谓的“改革开放”，但是从未改变一党专政的独裁统治。那时候汽车比现在少，空气污染不厉害，但是政治空气使我感到窒息，我完全不可能自由的做我的艺术。美国对我有极大的吸引力，但是重要的不是来美国，重要的是必须离开中国。移居到美国的最大感受是：在作为一个人和作为一个艺术家这两个方面，我都得到了重生。

Even though from 1979 Deng Xiaoping has launched “Reform and Opening” policy, the dictatorial role of CCP had never changed. That time, we had less cars, pollution wasn’t terrible, but political atmosphere was smothering me. I couldn’t do my art freely. America attracted me so much, but the point wasn’t to move to USA, the point was to leave China. When I definitively migrated, my feeling was: as a man and as an artist, I was simply reborn.

3.            毛泽东是您艺术品最勤的人物，这个是您的选择还是自发的？

Mao is a protagonist of your art. Is it a choice or it comes naturally instead?

ZHT:

开始毛泽东的系列是自发的，结束这个系列是我的选择。

At the very beginning it was natural, then turned into a personal choice.

4.       1972年沃霍尔绘了《毛泽东》。世界上大部分的人知道它。毛泽东像成为一个标志和伊丽莎白•泰勒、玛丽莲•梦露一样。您什么时候知道沃霍尔绘那幅画吗？您的第一个感觉是什么？很多西方艺术家绘了毛主席，您的见解是什么？

In 1972 Warhol realized “Mao”, known all around the world. Mao icon became a symbol, as well as Liz Taylor and Marilyn Monroe. When did you find out about it for the first time? What was your first feeling? A lot of western artists painted Mao, what is your idea about it?

ZHT:

大约是1982年夏天，在纽约的Metropolitan Museum 第一次见到 Andy Warhol的毛泽东作品。感觉很新奇，因为 Warhol 没有像中国画家那样用画圣像的方法表现毛。是的，Salvador Dali, Sigmar Polke 等西方艺术家在作品中也都用过毛的肖像。毛对于这些艺术家，像对于 Warhol 一样，毛等同于Marilyn Monroe，等同于 Campbell’s Soup can, 只不过是另一个 popular image。他们的作品对于毛没有质疑，没有批判，他们的毛和中国的政治，中国的社会没有关系，这些作品不可能触动中国人的神经。

作为一个独裁者和一个曾经被数亿人崇拜的偶像，毛必须被批判，被打倒，否则，中国不可能有前途，中国不可能成为民主国家，中国人将永远没有人权。我梦想中国应该有一个全民批毛运动。关心社会的艺术家不能只懂得如何与警察周旋，更应该勇敢的挑战中国的社会制度，清算毛泽东对中国文化的破坏，对中国人人性的摧残。

Approximately on summer 1982, at Metropolitan Museum of New York, I saw Warhol’s Mao for the very first time. The first impression was a new and strange thing. Warhol, differently from Chinese artists, didn’t paint Mao as a holy icon.

Yes, I know a lot of artists such as Salvador Dalí, Sigmar Polke and others used his portrait. But for these artists, Mao, as well as Marilyn Monroe or the Campbell’s Soup, were all considered simply popular images. Their works actually didn’t refer to Mao, didn’t disapprove him. These Mao were not related to Chinese politics and society, so they couldn’t move the feelings of Chinese people at all. As a dictator, as an icon worshipped by millions of people, Mao has to be criticized and overthrown, otherwise, China won’t have a future, won’t never become a democratic nation, Chinese people will never have rights. I wish the whole population will criticize Mao. Those artists who care about society, could not only make arrangements with police, they have to challenge the Chinese social system and clarify the role of Mao in the devastation of culture and human nature.

5.            《物质毛系列》对我留下很深的的影响，让我想古代中国的信仰。毛泽东空的形状跟宗教有关吗？

Material Mao Series left me a deep impression, let me think about Chinese ancient beliefs. The Mao shaped empty spaces are linked to religions, aren’t them?

ZHT:

和中国的“阴阳”学说有些联系。伊斯兰教义中的反对偶像崇拜，对我也有影响。

Yes, they are linked to Yin and Yang’s theory. The Islamic rejection of images also influenced me.

6.            《物质毛系列》用很多材料，意思是毛泽东什么地方都有吗？

Material Mao Series use a lot of material. I think it means that Mao is everywhere.

ZHT:

基本如此。

Essentially is that way.

7.            您的艺术品有个准确的意思、寓意吗？

Do your works bring  certain messages and meanings?

ZHT:

是的，我的作品都有一定的意思, 也有寓意。我希望我的作品是 “空洞无物” 的反面。我想中国政府也懂得我的作品的意思，这就是为什么今天我的作品仍然不准在中国展览。

Yes, my works have a specific meaning. I hope they are quite the opposite of “substanceless”. I hope the Chinese government too may understand this sense, that is exactly why my works still cannot be exhibited in China.

You may also be interested in: Museum Of My Art Only - www.momao.com, official website of Zhang Hongtu. 

Thanks to Zhang Hongtu.